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Post by Minnesota on Dec 17, 2015 20:06:56 GMT
Obviously there has been some discussion going around about what's the best way to handle the rookie draft going forward.
I've gotten messages from a few folks feeling like they'd like to have some input and have a discussion about this.
Seems like we have two polar views of a 72-pick Live Sim and the current Draft Board but I think there is room for additional solutions here. Cairo has a Wave System that we ran horribly during the Creation Draft but there is some promise there if we work out the errors from last time.
What I am interested in here is what you think the PROS/CONS are for the 72-pick Live Sim, the current Draft Board system, the Wave System (once hopefully Cairo explains it again for us), and any other system you think may work better.
Let's try and keep this discussion respectful and remember that this is for the betterment of the league. Please keep discussion on topic.
I look forward to hear what you have to tell us.
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Post by Swoosh on Dec 17, 2015 20:22:12 GMT
Potentially huge ramifications here...big stuff honestly. I'm very interested to see how it all plays out.
I'll sit back and watch.
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Post by New Orleans on Dec 17, 2015 20:26:46 GMT
Quoting this because this is what I agree with. He hit the nail on the head. Not saying I don't participate in some of the issues at all but he's right here. The issue isn't the draft board or not the draft board but the people who feel compelled to rush someone. Like I told Minnesota yesterday, when I said "it's the same bullshit in this league", it was 100% directed towards the harassment that comes from people wanting things rushes. That's something I've tried to avoid doing (except in jest to a few I know take it in jest).
I would say do this as Chicago suggested: "I would have been more happy if strikes were being given out if somebody ever told another GM to hurry up even though the draft had not officially started!"
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Post by dave on Dec 17, 2015 20:32:26 GMT
Alright before I go Pros/Cons, I hate the wave system. Because it basically just sets up the same complaints that people have about the draft board and being rushed or forced to pick prior to the draft.
Anyways: 72 Pick Live Sim (Which I am not a fan of)
Pros: It's all done at once on a set date/time
Cons:
-Less trading for one. Easier to make deals when picks are coming in the day or two prior to the live draft. I think you'd see far less draft day deals while on a timer. We used to see an occasional deal in the ABCAs of old but we also weren't die hard on the 5/2 minute timer if you knew a trade was coming and for 72 picks to happen live you'd have to do things fast. -I like the chance to re-evalute as the draft goes. All at once means alot of lists for teams that can't make a cerain time. Would have changed alot of the middle and late 1st for teams if they had lists that were made and couldn't work it on the fly thanks to the board
Draft Board:
Pros: -Teams at the top do not have to wait to make their obvious picks. -It's there and a nice tool for teams in different time zones that can pop on and make their pick after seeing who went. -It's just easy, it's there and you pick.
Cons: -IF teams haven't filled their coaching staffs (Whatsupwitdat?)it can cause issues with the final rescout before the draft, but that is a completely different easy to fix topic. -GMs "blasting" or "bullying" Gms for taking their time (Which they have every right to)
Wave System:
Pros: Not sure I think there are any. It's basically like a draft board and still basically a draft board with a timer attached to it.
Cons: I don't see it being any different then what we have with the draft board except with a timer that you have to hope your team is on the timer for when you're available if you are picking behind somebody who isn't there.
In Summary:
Leave things as they are. This is the first time this has been an issue and it was because of Coach FA and teams not paying attention. Strikes or worse will fix this, let teams know coaching staffs are expected to be filled the evening of Coach FA 2 and no later, otherwise they get a random coach assigned to them.
I am one who likes the draft board because I find it easier to keep up with for the beginning of drafts then waiting through so many slack messages, and I'm not sure you'd have seen so many top 10 picks dealt in a live draft and that's always more fun for everybody.
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Post by New Orleans on Dec 17, 2015 20:36:54 GMT
In Summary: Leave things as they are. This is the first time this has been an issue and it was because of Coach FA and teams not paying attention. Strikes or worse will fix this, let teams know coaching staffs are expected to be filled the evening of Coach FA 2 and no later, otherwise they get a random coach assigned to them. I am one who likes the draft board because I find it easier to keep up with for the beginning of drafts then waiting through so many slack messages, and I'm not sure you'd have seen so many top 10 picks dealt in a live draft and that's always more fun for everybody. Take things further. If you don't sign a coach in the evening of FA2 (or by noon next day... never know the time it happens) then you get a straight F- coach for everyone you didn't sign. Make it a penalty for real that hurts a team vs. it getting filled. i.e. Lakers would have F- in every coach category since he had an entire staff to fill. It hurts him tremendously but that's the price for not being away and not being active.
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ben
Rookie
Posts: 224
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Post by ben on Dec 17, 2015 20:43:25 GMT
live draft sim for different time zone GMs is pretty bad idea....
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Post by Vancouver on Dec 17, 2015 21:00:24 GMT
I personally like a live draft -- I think the draft board provides teams drafting at the top significant advantages and leverage when it comes to making trades.
I'd elaborate further but if you don't get what I mean then any additional explanation won't be of much help.
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Post by Mikawa on Dec 17, 2015 21:12:15 GMT
I think a point that is getting lost in having a draft board with timers is... it's not different than a live draft in terms of being there. If we just have a live draft and you can't make it, you have to send a giant list. If you know your pick is due at so and so time, you'd still send a list if you aren't available at that time (the list would be shorter though as picks would already be being made). You'd also know how much time you had to talk trade if you want. I also think the timed draft board should only apply to the 1st round... if you really care about someone in the 2nd... send a list.
The main obstacle to overcome with the timers is we need a way to auto pick if people don't send a list or aren't around if Minny isn't available. We could honestly just pick best available on the draft preview html. You'd have at least a day or two to make a list for your pick. I can type this up in more detail later or wait for Cairo, but I really don't understand the hate for a draft board with set pick times.
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Post by Vancouver on Dec 17, 2015 21:16:01 GMT
I think a point that is getting lost in having a draft board with timers is... it's not different than a live draft in terms of being there. If we just have a live draft and you can't make it, you have to send a giant list. If you know your pick is due at so and so time, you'd still send a list if you aren't available at that time (the list would be shorter though as picks would already be being made). You'd also know how much time you had to talk trade if you want. I also think the timed draft board should only apply to the 1st round... if you really care about someone in the 2nd... send a list. The main obstacle to overcome with the timers is we need a way to auto pick if people don't send a list or aren't around if Minny isn't available. We could honestly just pick best available on the draft preview html. You'd have at least a day or two to make a list for your pick. I can type this up in more detail later or wait for Cairo, but I really don't understand the hate for a draft board with set pick times. I would agree on set times -- I only care for everyone having the same time frames to either make a pick, shop it or just make a trade. People who can shop a pick for hours versus those who have mere minutes is a major issue in my opinion.
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Post by Mikawa on Dec 17, 2015 21:26:48 GMT
I think a point that is getting lost in having a draft board with timers is... it's not different than a live draft in terms of being there. If we just have a live draft and you can't make it, you have to send a giant list. If you know your pick is due at so and so time, you'd still send a list if you aren't available at that time (the list would be shorter though as picks would already be being made). You'd also know how much time you had to talk trade if you want. I also think the timed draft board should only apply to the 1st round... if you really care about someone in the 2nd... send a list. The main obstacle to overcome with the timers is we need a way to auto pick if people don't send a list or aren't around if Minny isn't available. We could honestly just pick best available on the draft preview html. You'd have at least a day or two to make a list for your pick. I can type this up in more detail later or wait for Cairo, but I really don't understand the hate for a draft board with set pick times. I would agree on set times -- I only care for everyone having the same time frames to either make a pick, shop it or just make a trade. People who can shop a pick for hours versus those who have mere minutes is a major issue in my opinion. This is also my main issue.
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Post by Portland on Dec 17, 2015 21:39:39 GMT
Over many years of sim league drafts I've yet to see a better way to do it than the time-honored draft board. No it's not perfect. I agree with every word of Chicago's post. Moscow's idea for assigning shitty scouts to teams which aren't full shortly after Coach FA2 has merit, except I worry that said gm quits the league and the replacement gm gets stuck with Bells Ramirez coaching his team. Maybe better for the commish to just assign mediocre-but-not-gawdawful staff (C- across the board) as he sees fit.
Thanks for the opportunity to weigh in.
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Post by Minnesota on Dec 17, 2015 21:40:53 GMT
I agree with every word of Chicago's post. Moscow's idea for assigning shitty scouts to teams which aren't full shortly after Coach FA2 has merit, except I worry that said gm quits the league and the replacement gm gets stuck with Bells Ramirez coaching his team. FWIW - incoming GMs can fire any/all of their staff with no cap hit.
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Post by dave on Dec 17, 2015 21:59:15 GMT
Over many years of sim league drafts I've yet to see a better way to do it than the time-honored draft board. No it's not perfect. I agree with every word of Chicago's post. Moscow's idea for assigning shitty scouts to teams which aren't full shortly after Coach FA2 has merit, except I worry that said gm quits the league and the replacement gm gets stuck with Bells Ramirez coaching his team. Maybe better for the commish to just assign mediocre-but-not-gawdawful staff (C- across the board) as he sees fit. Thanks for the opportunity to weigh in. That was my idea when I suggested it, just some mediocre coaches that likely won't make a difference for them on a 1yr contract
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Post by Minnesota on Dec 17, 2015 22:16:38 GMT
Not so worried about how to get into the draft by signing coaches. I think that's a separate discussion.
More curious how the draft should be conducted.
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Post by dave on Dec 17, 2015 22:23:27 GMT
Not so worried about how to get into the draft by signing coaches. I think that's a separate discussion. More curious how the draft should be conducted. Fair enough. I thought that's what started all this nonsense due to the rescout affecting picks made.
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Post by Minnesota on Dec 17, 2015 22:28:32 GMT
Not so worried about how to get into the draft by signing coaches. I think that's a separate discussion. More curious how the draft should be conducted. Fair enough. I thought that's what started all this nonsense due to the rescout affecting picks made. I appreciate what you are saying but what I heard is that it wasn't because of that rescouting event that people in the committee started talking. I think we can easily fix that rescout issue. For me its really about the format to carry out the draft that makes the most sense for the league.
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Post by Sarawak on Dec 17, 2015 23:14:34 GMT
I actually am not pushing the wave system for the draft. I think the draft board idea with timed slots is the way to go. Here is the problem I have seen and others have complained to me about with the current way we draft.
A few teams slow it down for everybody. We all know the drill and guess what it is their right to do so. All I want to do is add a bunch of structure to the draft board set up so that teams know the time they have to pick by for the first round.
So here is a rough sketch of how I see things potentially working.
Coaching FA 2 is run. Teams that still have openings will have coaches signed for them to one year deals by the commish at the end of the sim. There is no reason in coaching FA sim 2 to not make enough offers to sign somebody.
Once the file has advanced to the draft the draft board is opened on the forums and there are no timeslots until the following day. This serves two purposes. First it gives teams time to pick if they are up and talk trade. Two it gives more structure to the draft.
A time will be posted for each pick with the idea being that teams can pick before their time is due, but once posted time slots will not change.
Day After Coaching FA 2 Draft Times Pick 1 9 AM Central Time Pick 2 10:30 AM Pick 3 12 PM Pick 4 1:30 PM Pick 5 3 PM Pick 6 4:30 PM Pick 7 6 PM Pick 8 7:30 PM Pick 9 9PM Pick 10 10:30 PM
Draft Day 2 Pick 11 8 Am Pick 12 9 AM Pick 13 10 AM Pick 14 11 AM Pick 15 12 PM Pick 16 1 PM Pick 17 2 PM Pick 18 3 PM Pick 19 4 PM Pick 20 5 PM Pick 21 6 Pm Pick 22 7 PM Pick 23 8 PM Pick 24 9 PM Pick 25 10 PM Pick 26 11 PM
Draft Day 3 Pick 27 8 AM Pick 28 9 AM Pick 29 10 AM Pick 30 11 AM Pick 31 12 PM Pick 32 1 PM Pick 33 2 PM Pick 34 3 PM Pick 35 4 PM Pick 36 5 PM
2nd Round Done live at 6 PM
Thoughts Pros everybody gets time up front. Everybody knows draft time to submit list or be around. Teams have a small but dedicated window to talk trade before their pick if they want. Draft moves smoothly
Cons takes longer, teams still may feel rushed, 10 teams can all pick way and advance and a team can then take all that time to wait for their time to be up talking trade etc.
Other thoughts: I like this conceptual. If the team picking PM's the next team up things tend to move quickly. Once a team misses a slot they get autp'd and then remain on auto for the rest of the draft unless they PM the designated draft runner.
This system needs one comm. member to run it with a back up. The commish then shows up and sims the 2nd round. Draft file updates will occur as the commish can during the draft.
I think something along these lines provides a balance between a draft board and waves If we did consider waves it would be 6 sets of 6 picks with 3 waves a day. So Wave 1 10 AM, wave 2 4 PM, Waves 3 10 PM. The issues I have found with Waves is it tends to upset people at the end of each wave making a large list and getting no trade talk time
This is just an idea, but I think it addresses things. IMO the current system is abused by a few GMs who are either inactive or delusional about thinking that they will find some mythically awesome trade by waiting as long as possible, when what happens almost every time is they make the obvious pick after 6-12-18 hours on the clock.
Comments, criticism, suggestions encouraged it is just one idea.
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Post by dave on Dec 17, 2015 23:20:06 GMT
I would say IF things change, the above version is probably the best for everybody since it seems to give ample time since I'm not sure anything is going to make things easier on the overseas GMs.
I would suggest, and maybe I just read the above wrong that teams still have the remainder of the day or at least a few hours after Coach FA2 to sign their own guy since for example many GMs put in less bids to not get multiple coaches that cover the same areas. Maybe that was implied and I read wrong though.
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Post by Newcastle on Dec 17, 2015 23:48:52 GMT
Will give a more detailed reply later but kinda surprised this has kicked off after this draft as I didn't think anyone really held it up, I do think Chicago's post was spot on.
Quickly one thing I don't get is people wanting to do it all in a live sim, what is that achieving? The way it is setup now is basically that but as we wait the 2 days before the live draft we can make a start. People can't also make the live sims and its a lot easier to make a 10-15 man list than a 30+ man list. Also don't see a problem with teams drafting higher having more time once their pick is up to move it since it has alot more value than a 20+ pick once we hit the live part of the draft.
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Post by Sarawak on Dec 17, 2015 23:49:23 GMT
I would say IF things change, the above version is probably the best for everybody since it seems to give ample time since I'm not sure anything is going to make things easier on the overseas GMs. I would suggest, and maybe I just read the above wrong that teams still have the remainder of the day or at least a few hours after Coach FA2 to sign their own guy since for example many GMs put in less bids to not get multiple coaches that cover the same areas. Maybe that was implied and I read wrong though. It wasn't and that would be fine with me. I also feel like 2 sims is more than enough to sign coaches.
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Moscow
Assistant GM
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Posts: 522
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Post by Moscow on Dec 18, 2015 1:06:49 GMT
I personally love the proposal that was outlined above. I've seen the timed slots work perfectly in a JSB league Cro, Boog and I were in. We had a bunch of tech-savvy guys in that league and they actually created a draft page where you could log in and make the pick yourself etc.
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Post by Taipei on Dec 18, 2015 6:15:42 GMT
live draft sim for different time zone GMs is pretty bad idea.... This. It would almost be impossible for me to make a live draft. So then I have to make a 40-50 person list, and I could end up drafting a bunch of PG's (although I did that without a live draft last year) because I need one so I rank them all ahead of better players, etc. I like the wave system, more than most, because I think GM's should be slightly prepared for what's going on in the league. I think people should have a 5-10 person list before their pick. If the full draft list has been up for 3-4 days and you have a top 10 pick, once again be slightly prepared. If you are waiting for another GM about a trade, that's one thing, but if you have the 8th pick and you are online, make the fucking pick. You should know what your roster looks like and who is still available. There's a difference between bullying/bothering GM's that aren't around, and asking guys to give a shit. I do agree with what Chicago said though, we are all adults (at least I think) no need to start harassing people. That's why I like the wave system, give people a time-table that they have to draft by. Stretch the draft out 3-4 days (which is just about what we did) and stick to those guidelines. No editing or changing because we are going faster. That way the guy with the 17th pick knows that in two days he needs to have his shit together to make that pick. WE need to work on constructive ways to make the league better, in-fighting isn't going to help.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 6:33:10 GMT
tl:dr this thread or the chat debate the other day.
That being said, if this is about changing the draft, I don't mind how we've done the drafts for the last ten plus years in ABCA.. Board + live sim + send a list you lazy bum.
Bai2u.
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Post by Taipei on Dec 18, 2015 6:40:04 GMT
I'd rather we do something like picks 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc and give everyone a 6 hour window. This helps with the time difference. The one and a half hour window is a bit rough for me, especially if I'm picking in the 1-7PM CST range. If I'm the only one outside of the US, then this point is moot.
I think the thing that people have problems with is the guy that's on slack for 10-15 minutes talking about why he can't make his pick and antagonizing people by saying something about how the draft hasn't 'officially' started yet and they don't have to make the pick. IMO if you have the time to talk shit on the boards and antagonize people you have time to make a pick. The full (or at least 90%) of the draft list is usually up a week or so before the draft begins. You should know what pick you have, and take the 15-20 minutes to make a rough list/do some scouting/etc. If someone is genuinely busy, I can't imagine anyone would or should really give them shit. Just don't be a dick about it, "hey guys I'm about to walk into a meeting/soccer game/class/whatever, I should be done in 2-3 hours", everyone understands.
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Post by Taipei on Dec 18, 2015 6:43:54 GMT
A live draft is a terrible idea. At least for all 72 picks to be done at once. Of course 2nd rounders or whatever is fine, but if someone has 2-3 1sts and can't make the time that is voted on/assigned by the committee that really hurts their team.
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