The First Ever Rookie Draft Round Table
Oct 23, 2015 13:57:55 GMT
Minnesota, New York, and 1 more like this
Post by Sarawak on Oct 23, 2015 13:57:55 GMT
Here is it!
I know, I know you have been waiting breathlessly to read way too many words, from way too many people about the draft and then watch me arbitrarily award scores to the participants! That said here is what we did. We surveyed the contestants on 6 questions related to the draft. For each question participants are rewarded between 1 and 5 points. This roundtable you can get bonus points in the following ways:
Highest total score: 150 PP
2nd Highest total score: 100 PP
3rd highest total score: 50 PP
Best Answer of the Roundtable: 50 PP
Without further adieu...
Draft Roundtable
1. There is much excitement about the inaugural rookie draft and then new three draft class format. Given this, what is your starting 5, not top 5 but if you have 5 drafts picks in this class to make a starting lineup with, who are they and why.
Buenos Aires:
PG Chris Paul - At 20 years of age he is already looking like a top 10 point guard in the league, and the potential to improve is enormous. Hes got all the right tools to be a true floor general, a point guard who can become an elite passer, defender while being an efficient scorer.
SG- Sam Jones- This was the hardest choice, but at this stage of our new league, premier shooting is hard to come by, especially combined with defense. A team built with a PG like Paul needs shooters to give him space, especially while having other non shooting players in the lineup, which we are going to see later. Jones is destined to be one of the prime and most efficient shooters in the next few seasons.
SF-Elgin Baylor- A post brute who scores efficiently on the block, defends at a high rate, and is probably the best rebounder from the SF position from the start. In the league. Not much more needs to be said.
PF- Jerry Lucas- Premier rebounder, especially on the offensive glass, and a good interior scorer with a touch of jumpshooting ability. In this lineup he would probably do the most work off the ball, cleaning up the offensive glass and spotting up for midrange jumpers and close range shots.
C-Bill Russell- The man in the middle is a mountain in the middle. Coming in at the age of 23, hes already one of the best defensive big men in the league. He is more then capable of erasing every rookie mistake the other 4 rookie starters commit on a nightly basis. Offensively he doesnt need the ball in his hands to be effective, his passing is elite for a big man, and with all 5 guys being capable passers, they are going to present a motion nightmare for defenses.
This starting 5 would be a championship favorite from day 1.
Madrid:
My starting lineup would be: Chris Paul/Sam Jones/Elgin Baylor/Jerry Lucas/Bill Russell.
Sorry, Hondo.
These players have all separated themselves from the rest of the class. The only argument would be whether or not to include Havlicek on the wing or not. Simply put, the team absolutely needs Chris Paul and Bill Russell. Sam Jones is necessary to have a shooter in the lineup. Then, Baylor gives them the go-to scorer. For my team, give me Jerry Lucas to fill out the starting 5. He might be the most ready and well-rounded player in the draft, and he gives the team a legitimate post threat opposite Russell.
Minnesota:
My starting line-up would be - Russell, Lucas, Baylor, Hondo, and Paul. I'm not sure there is a better answer out there as they are arguably the 5 best players in the draft too. You'd have a lot of guys who can do a lot of things well. I may be able to win a title with that team in Year 2. I think that looks like a pretty ideal team as Russell and Paul are good compliments for eachother and I like Hondo and Baylor together. Someone may argue Sam Jones should play SG and I could hear that but I like the versatility of Hondo and Baylor as I think they can each play both wing positions while Sam is strickly a SG.
Moscow:
I’m unconventional to say the least. Positions don’t matter as much as fit and ability to co-exist. I’ll play a forward or wing out of position without a problem. That makes this extremely easy for me.
C: Bill Russell
PF: Elgin Baylor
SF: John Havlicek
SG: Sam Jones
PG: Chris Paul
Not only do I think these five are the best five players in the draft but they fit amazingly. 1 through 4 can shoot it at a high level and Russell is the rebounder/rim protector you need back there. Chris Paul can make those around him better and I win. Thanks!
New York:
C - Bill Russell
PF - Jerry Lucas
SF - Elgin Baylor
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Chris Paul
Okay so going down the line here I think a lot of these are easy choices outside of maybe 1 or 2. For the center position you can't have anyone here besides Bill Russell. This guy is going to be great on defense and I suspect he'll be just as good as he was in LEgends offensively and that will be a bigger advantage for him here since I don't think this league will be filled with 20+ 20 PPG scorers each season.
You could argue that he should be the starting PF because he has the versatility to play all three front court positions but I think Jerry Lucas is a better big man than any of the other options at Center. He won't block many shots but he'll do anything else that you could imagine and he'll be a young guy that contributes early in the same way that Pau Gasol and Greg Oden did in season one.
Small Forward is another easy one because Elgin Baylor just might be the best player in this draft or at least he's in the top 2 with Bill Russell. He is going to be dynamic on the offensive side and won't be too shabby defensively. I can't see the argument for any SF other than him.
At Shooting Guard I know everyone loves Hondo (besides Beijing) but I am going to go with the guy that I think will be the better player in year one, Sam Jones. So lets compare the two, Hondo has a better inside game but from my perspective Jones does more everywhere else on the offensive end. Hondo is the better passer with them being equal ball handlers but Jones is the better rebounder so a bit of a wash there. Hondo is the better post defender in the long run but I don't know how much that matters for a shooting guard. If we were debating the small forward i'd be more inclined to lean towards Hondo but we're not. Athletically i'd say they are similar with Jones having the edge jumping wise. Long term I just may put Hondo here but for this i'm looking at immediate impact and I think Jones has him beat in year one.
At Point Guard this is another easy one. I love KC Jones and I think Deron Williams is going to be a nice pickup for someone but Chris Paul is the guy here. He comes in already as the point guard that can do everything you want your point guard to do and he has the ability to grow into an All-Star. If I was looking at the three point guards this is the one that i'd be comfortable starting a team with while the others are ones i'd be fine with as my 2nd or 3rd piece and I think that says a lot.
Long winded but I think this is a well balanced starting five that gives you some of everything.
Vancouver: I like this question. I can tell already without reading the rest that you are probably the best moderator we've had so far. Now in regards to your actual question, my Center would be Andrew Bogut due to his size, defense and rebounding ability. I would then move Russell to PF, which may not be allowed in this excercise but I am going to go that route. He's my #1 player and will make an elite defensive front court pairing. From there I would sign up Baylor to play SF, which is a no brainer. I would then add in Sam Jones, which is a tough choice over Hondo but he will play elite defense on the perimeter and be lights out from downtown. We will need that spacing because our PG, Chris Paul will be getting to the hole and dishing out easy buckets to all.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 4
Madrid: 4
Minnesota: 4
Moscow: 6
New York: 4
Vancouver: 4
Moderator Thoughts:
We started with a layup honestly so everybody did well. I like Moscow thinking outside of a box and putting together a lineup that is scarily similar to the Seattle teams of Legends Lore. Giving Moscow 6 for best answer and everybody else 4 for tying for 2nd best answer...total cop out I know!
2. What do you think is the strength of this draft class and why? Is it guards? Defensive players? Bigs, etc.
Buenos Aires:
I think its positinal diversity...In some classes you have a loaded C or a PG class..This class has it all at all positions. I truly think it would be easy to construct a well balanced team at all positions from the first 12 picks.
Madrid:
The draft is fairly well-rounded. I'd expect at least 4 players from each position to be drafted in the first 30 picks. It's probably weakest at PF and strongest on the wing. I'm not sure we'll see another draft for a while that features guys as talented and diverse as John Havlicek, Sam Jones, and Elgin Baylor at the top. After that, you can draft a defensive specialist in Dave DeBusschere, a scorer in Terry Dischinger, a well-rounded player in Danny Granger, or an incredibly raw player with gobs of potential in Gerald Green. And that's still discounting Chet Walker, Hot Rod Hundley, and Monta Ellis. If you need a swingman, this draft is for you.
Minnesota:
I think the strength of this draft class is how even the talent is spread. There are very good prosects at all positions. At Center you have Russell, Bynum, Bogut, etc. At Power Forward you have just have Jerry Lucas - that may be the weakest position of the draft. The Small Forwards are anchored by Baylor but don't sleep on Dischinger, DeBusschere, Granger, Walker, and others. Shooting Guard looks good with Hondo, Sam Jones, Hot Rod, and NOLA's guy Rashad McCants. The Point Guard position is deep too - not even sure who goes before the other Paul or Williams, and then you still have K.C. Jones, Bob Duffy, Guy Rodgers and a few other guys who could give you some good minutes.
I'm not sure there is one strength to this draft class but it looks pretty clear that Power Forward is the weakest position at this point. Still a few more players who will declare so that could change.
Moscow:
The strength in this class is the depth of potential difference makers. In a league void of talented depth, there are a dozen or so players that can be legitimate pieces on a title contender out there. After that there is a lot of talent that can start in spots or be crucial role players. The influx of talent coupled with superstars at the top make this a great first draft.
New York:
hmm this is an interesting player. I'd say that the wings are the strength if that is an option. You've got guys that I am really high on like Sam Jones, Hondo, Baylor, and also guys like DeBusschere and Dischinger. I'd also say that they defensive ability is pretty promising and we'll see some strong defenders longterm in the post and perimeter come from this draft.
Vancouver:
I think the strength is in the backcourt as you have a wide variety of different types of players that excel at different things. The resounding theme for them is good perimeter defense, which as a coach who preaches defense, is very appealing. I think there's sufficient depth here as well which leads me to believe that a few good starters will drop to the teens as teams pick for need as opposed to BPA.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires:2
Madrid: 5
Minnesota: 6
Moscow: 1
New York: 4
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts: Everybody has pretty similar thoughts, but the devil is in the details. Moscow you started so promising but then no details at all. Minnesota kind of hit on this draft the best. Waters run deep and so does Minnesota's score leading the way with a 5.
3. This draft as it stands right now has seen 16 first round picks change teams, including 4 lotto picks. DO you think this is a trend we should expect to continue or more a reflection of Creation Draft/Year One madness?
Buenos Aires:
Well next classes are going to have at least one lotto pick that changed hands since Spurs keep tradin' them picks
. Im not sure about the trend, some GMs like me, Seer etc will keep trading picks, and some prefer to almost always keep theirs. Everyone has their own strategy. I do think that with much more teams in this version of the league, and with the anti tanking rule policy, that firsts hold a bit less value, and the the risk factor is a bit lesser. As time passes by the league will evolve, it will be easier to point out the contenders, but until then, I think teams may be more open to trading picks and taking risks.
Madrid:
I doubt this trend will continue. For many teams, this year became a win-at-all-costs type of season. For good reason, the vast majority of playoff teams sacrificed their picks this year, and some even traded away picks beyond that. After this season, some of the teams who mistakenly traded their picks should start to keep them, although San Antonio has already proven me wrong on that point. Other picks from perpetual winning teams will lose value and might not be traded for pennies.
Minnesota:
With more teams comes more lottery picks. I think this is going to be the norm as teams who are the 9th seed make a move to get into the playoffs that maybe doesn't work out for them. 4 does seem a little high but the 16 doesn't surprise me as much. We've already seen one team trade their 2004 pick. I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers went up actually. I wouldn't predict that but people love to roll the dice.
Moscow:
I actually think it’s crazy that only ONE top 17 pick isn’t owned by the original team. It shows you the conservative approach taken with the creation draft. Of the 16 teams that made the playoffs, only 4 still have their firsts. In this league it proves you need to turn every bit of your tradeable assets into on the court production to win. I suspect we’ll see 2-3 Top 15 picks not on those teams next year.
New York:
- The beauty of still having saves from Legends is I can look back at things like the draft page. According to the save there were 17 first round draft picks dealt in the final Legends draft and 6 in the lotto (two owned by me
) so no I don't think that this was just Year One madness.
Vancouver:
With the talent level diluted right now, the value of picks is relatively low as teams don't have any other means to acquire talent. I think this is a trend that is directly related to it being year one but I envision having at least 10+ first round picks change teams every year just due to the expansion of the entire league and the amount of teams that are going to be vying for a playoff spot.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 3
Madrid: 1
Minnesota: 2
Moscow: 4
New York: 6
Vancouver: 5
Moderator Thoughts:
New York bringing the science on this one. Good answers overall!
4. How many rebounds would a Bill Russell rebound, if a Bill Russell rebounded for you?
Buenos Aires:
In year 1 the league played at a fairly slow pace, and percentages were solid, not much outside shooting, so there werent that many rebound around to snag. With Bill's premier ability, and the league picking up the pace, a Bill Russell would probably pick up 10 rebounds per game, with the tendency of improving that number in the following seasons.
Madrid:
Bill Russell would rebound a goddamn championship...Do you have a key to the Champions' Lounge?
Minnesota:
Yeah 1? Probably about 9 rebounds per game. I would hope that he would turn into an elite defender and rebounder down the road but I think Bill is ready to contribute right away. Jerry Lucas is also a legitimate rebounder. Those two might be battling for most boards down the road. I think both guys will be 10 year starters in this league and have a chance to be Hall of Famers. Russell may go down as the best defensive player we'll ever see.
Moscow:
If I got Russell, I’d likely deal anyone from position 1-4 that could rebound for skills in other area so I’d imagine a 10.5-11rebound rookie season for him. In other words, Russell would rebound every rebound that could be rebounded.
New York:
- Right out of the gate he will be upwards up 9 RPG if used properly and could hit double digits. Depending on where he lands though I could see high 8s in year one.
Vancouver:
I would say 12 just because the dude is going to get at least 3 ORB a game from his own misses due to his inept offensive game.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 3
Madrid: 6
Minnesota: 3
Moscow: 3
New York: 3
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts: Madrid's answer is the best answer in my limited history of round tables. Well done sir. 50 PP bonus for best answer Everybody gets a 3 because I said so.
5. Who is your favorite player in the draft?
Buenos Aires:
Dont ask me why but Chris Paul. I just love the look of what he could become one day. After him its Bill Russell.
Madrid:
My favorite player in this draft is Bill McGill. He could slide on draft night, but he has the talent and potential as a scorer to be a top 10 pick. Looking at the success Bob Kurland had in Bamberg this year, some teams might want to take a shot at McGill over some bigger names.
Minnesota:
McCants - if NOLA wants him then he must have something going for him. Otherwise I really like Gerald Green. Crazy athletic, tremendous upside. If I could find a way to get out of this draft with both of those guys on my roster I will consider it a win for the Wolves offseason.
Moscow:
Really. Easy. Sam Jones. League is void of shooters and he’s an elite one. He is athletic, plays defense at a high level and those skills add up. In other words, while there are players with more talent, there is no player in the draft that has his combination. I feel in the league there is a lack of those three things on the perimeter and for him to bring it all, impressive.
New York:
- Hmm well it's tough because I think the best two guys in the draft will be Baylor and Russell w/ Baylor probably having a bit of an edge because I think he's going to be a fun scorer long term. But I have to go big and say that Bill Russell is my guy here. I could go with one of the lesser known or discussed prospects like KC Jones who I like on both sides of the ball but Russell is going to be a monster defensively while still being able to give you 20 PPG every night. Plus like I mentioned he has versatility that I love in my front court guys.
Vancouver:
Raymond Felton. JK. I hate him. Love me some Hondo, who will impact both sides of the floor and be above average in all facets of the game. Add in his size, athleticism and ready to step in game and he would be hard for me to pass up.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 1
Madrid: 2
Minnesota: 4
Moscow: 4
New York: 4
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts:
No clear winner here but some good answers. I agree with Moscow's view on Sam Jones the question is will he be Darwin Cook his first half of his career in Legends or the 2nd? I would lean the 2nd half of his career. Like what Minny and NY brought to the table so giving all 3 of you a 3 way tie for first.
6. Most overrated/underrated
Buenos Aires:
Overrated- Dave Debusshere- Hes a PF in a SF body, cant shoot, isnt a great rebounder, hes quick but noth athletic or strong enough. Hes going in the top 10 probably, but I just dont know where to project him position wise, and with what hes going to make his name in this league.
Underrated- Tommy Heinsohn and Paul Hogue...two big men, one a versatile scorer and one a premier defender, both have a chance to be starters on contenders in this league.
Madrid:
Overrated: Sam Jones. Some have pegged Jones as a top-3 pick or even as having an outside shot at being drafted #1. Jones is an excellent shooter and defender, and is well-rounded. However, recent updates from scouts have shown questions about Jones's ability to finish around the basket, as well as his strength. Despite being well-rounded at the moment, scouts question his ability to become more than a high-level 3-and-D guy. Because of this, Jones might have the lowest upside as a scorer in the top-5 of this draft, on-par with Bill Russell.
Underrated: Jerry Lucas. Scouts recently have questioned Lucas's upside and ability to hang with ABCA athletes. He's not going to beat many Power Forwards down the floor and won't be out-muscling or out-jumping anyone. However, sometimes teams forget how important refined skill is. Lucas is the best post player in the draft and might have the best numbers out of the gate. His previous success in ABCA Legends, even well into his 30s, should make teams think twice about passing on him in the top-5.
Minnesota:
Zelmo Beaty. He is definitely the most overrated/underrated. I have never seen a guy so overrated/underrated before. The guy is going to be what he is. His game fits his style. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that. He's right in the middle. He's the most and the least polarizing player in this draft. Someone's gonna get a player when they draft him.
Moscow:
The most overrated player is Bill Russell. He’ll be an elite defensive big and is extremely athletic for his size but not sure he’ll ever give you enough on offense to be worth a top 3 pick (where he is sure to go). As the league improves, he’ll need boosts to get there and he is already 23.
Underrated has to go to Sam Jones. Like I said before, he is skilled in areas where very few around the league are. He’d instantly be one of the top at his positions and give you a clear advantage versus most teams. That can’t be said for any of the other top players. He should be considered in top 3.
New York:
- Hmm overrated is tricky I think because I haven't had many discussions with other GMs. I'm going to pick a surprising name here because while I mentioned above that i'd start a team with him, I have heard discussion of Chris Paul being the #1 pick and I don't think that'd be the move to make. Great player and don't get me wrong he's going to be a top 5 guy out of this draft but I think there are guys that are easily the #1 pick ahead of him.
Underrated i'd say is KC Jones or Jerry Lucas and again I might be reading things completely wrong since my discussion with other GMs about this was limited to nonexistent. KC Jones is going to be an effective Point Guard and one of my favorite players (long term) to come out of this draft and he might slip outside of the top 10 to a lucky team. He doesn't have offensive ratings that'll blow you away but he's respectable everywhere and athletic enough that he'll contribute something offensively while being a top tier defender at the PG position. He reminds me of Guy Rodgers from Legends on my Knicks teams who was never a top 25 scorer or anything but was an all-defense type guy and put up 15 PPG | 5.5 RPG | 8 APG in his best year. Jerry Lucas to a lesser extent is a bit underrated because I think he ends up getting passed over by a GM or two because of his lack of shot blocking but in this league I don't think this will be as big of an issue for PFs and what he CAN do makes up for that one weakness. But if you are just asking for one then KC Jones is my guy
Vancouver:
Overrated is Terry Dischinger. He has the size and age on his size but he is mediocre to me. I think he'll get drafted based on what he accomplished in Legends but I think he's a jack of no trades. My current (aka nobody) scout has him at #6 and I just don't see it.
Underrated is KC Jones. I think he will step in on day 1 and instantly produce as an above average point guard. He's currently projected #14 which I think sells him a little short as he may not have the offensive prowess of some of the guys ranked ahead of him but he has elite ball handling skills and defense which will play for anyone
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 1
Madrid: 4
Minnesota: 5
Moscow: 2
New York: 6
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts: All interesting answers. I think NY brought it the strongest. I agree with Minny on Don't Call Me Elmo and it was hard to separate the others but I don't think Sam Jones is either under or overrated. He is exactly what he should be a pick in the 3-7 range depending on the team.
Total Scoring and the Awarding of Points
First Place w 24 Points: New York (150 PP) + Participating = 225 PP
T Second Place w 22 Points: Minnesota and Madrid(75PP) + Participating = 150 PP (combined 2nd and 3rd place PP and divided by 2)
Fourth Place w 21 Points: Vancouver = 75 PP
Fifth Place w 20 Points: Moscow = 75 PP
Sixth Place w 14 Points: Buenos Aires = 75 PP
+50 to Madrid for best answer
Moderator: Cairo = 150 PP -50 PP for forgetting Vancouver = 100 PP
The results changed after initial posting because I mistakenly left out Vancouver. Sorry Vancouver
I know, I know you have been waiting breathlessly to read way too many words, from way too many people about the draft and then watch me arbitrarily award scores to the participants! That said here is what we did. We surveyed the contestants on 6 questions related to the draft. For each question participants are rewarded between 1 and 5 points. This roundtable you can get bonus points in the following ways:
Highest total score: 150 PP
2nd Highest total score: 100 PP
3rd highest total score: 50 PP
Best Answer of the Roundtable: 50 PP
Without further adieu...
Draft Roundtable
1. There is much excitement about the inaugural rookie draft and then new three draft class format. Given this, what is your starting 5, not top 5 but if you have 5 drafts picks in this class to make a starting lineup with, who are they and why.
Buenos Aires:
PG Chris Paul - At 20 years of age he is already looking like a top 10 point guard in the league, and the potential to improve is enormous. Hes got all the right tools to be a true floor general, a point guard who can become an elite passer, defender while being an efficient scorer.
SG- Sam Jones- This was the hardest choice, but at this stage of our new league, premier shooting is hard to come by, especially combined with defense. A team built with a PG like Paul needs shooters to give him space, especially while having other non shooting players in the lineup, which we are going to see later. Jones is destined to be one of the prime and most efficient shooters in the next few seasons.
SF-Elgin Baylor- A post brute who scores efficiently on the block, defends at a high rate, and is probably the best rebounder from the SF position from the start. In the league. Not much more needs to be said.
PF- Jerry Lucas- Premier rebounder, especially on the offensive glass, and a good interior scorer with a touch of jumpshooting ability. In this lineup he would probably do the most work off the ball, cleaning up the offensive glass and spotting up for midrange jumpers and close range shots.
C-Bill Russell- The man in the middle is a mountain in the middle. Coming in at the age of 23, hes already one of the best defensive big men in the league. He is more then capable of erasing every rookie mistake the other 4 rookie starters commit on a nightly basis. Offensively he doesnt need the ball in his hands to be effective, his passing is elite for a big man, and with all 5 guys being capable passers, they are going to present a motion nightmare for defenses.
This starting 5 would be a championship favorite from day 1.
Madrid:
My starting lineup would be: Chris Paul/Sam Jones/Elgin Baylor/Jerry Lucas/Bill Russell.
Sorry, Hondo.
These players have all separated themselves from the rest of the class. The only argument would be whether or not to include Havlicek on the wing or not. Simply put, the team absolutely needs Chris Paul and Bill Russell. Sam Jones is necessary to have a shooter in the lineup. Then, Baylor gives them the go-to scorer. For my team, give me Jerry Lucas to fill out the starting 5. He might be the most ready and well-rounded player in the draft, and he gives the team a legitimate post threat opposite Russell.
Minnesota:
My starting line-up would be - Russell, Lucas, Baylor, Hondo, and Paul. I'm not sure there is a better answer out there as they are arguably the 5 best players in the draft too. You'd have a lot of guys who can do a lot of things well. I may be able to win a title with that team in Year 2. I think that looks like a pretty ideal team as Russell and Paul are good compliments for eachother and I like Hondo and Baylor together. Someone may argue Sam Jones should play SG and I could hear that but I like the versatility of Hondo and Baylor as I think they can each play both wing positions while Sam is strickly a SG.
Moscow:
I’m unconventional to say the least. Positions don’t matter as much as fit and ability to co-exist. I’ll play a forward or wing out of position without a problem. That makes this extremely easy for me.
C: Bill Russell
PF: Elgin Baylor
SF: John Havlicek
SG: Sam Jones
PG: Chris Paul
Not only do I think these five are the best five players in the draft but they fit amazingly. 1 through 4 can shoot it at a high level and Russell is the rebounder/rim protector you need back there. Chris Paul can make those around him better and I win. Thanks!
New York:
C - Bill Russell
PF - Jerry Lucas
SF - Elgin Baylor
SG - Sam Jones
PG - Chris Paul
Okay so going down the line here I think a lot of these are easy choices outside of maybe 1 or 2. For the center position you can't have anyone here besides Bill Russell. This guy is going to be great on defense and I suspect he'll be just as good as he was in LEgends offensively and that will be a bigger advantage for him here since I don't think this league will be filled with 20+ 20 PPG scorers each season.
You could argue that he should be the starting PF because he has the versatility to play all three front court positions but I think Jerry Lucas is a better big man than any of the other options at Center. He won't block many shots but he'll do anything else that you could imagine and he'll be a young guy that contributes early in the same way that Pau Gasol and Greg Oden did in season one.
Small Forward is another easy one because Elgin Baylor just might be the best player in this draft or at least he's in the top 2 with Bill Russell. He is going to be dynamic on the offensive side and won't be too shabby defensively. I can't see the argument for any SF other than him.
At Shooting Guard I know everyone loves Hondo (besides Beijing) but I am going to go with the guy that I think will be the better player in year one, Sam Jones. So lets compare the two, Hondo has a better inside game but from my perspective Jones does more everywhere else on the offensive end. Hondo is the better passer with them being equal ball handlers but Jones is the better rebounder so a bit of a wash there. Hondo is the better post defender in the long run but I don't know how much that matters for a shooting guard. If we were debating the small forward i'd be more inclined to lean towards Hondo but we're not. Athletically i'd say they are similar with Jones having the edge jumping wise. Long term I just may put Hondo here but for this i'm looking at immediate impact and I think Jones has him beat in year one.
At Point Guard this is another easy one. I love KC Jones and I think Deron Williams is going to be a nice pickup for someone but Chris Paul is the guy here. He comes in already as the point guard that can do everything you want your point guard to do and he has the ability to grow into an All-Star. If I was looking at the three point guards this is the one that i'd be comfortable starting a team with while the others are ones i'd be fine with as my 2nd or 3rd piece and I think that says a lot.
Long winded but I think this is a well balanced starting five that gives you some of everything.
Vancouver: I like this question. I can tell already without reading the rest that you are probably the best moderator we've had so far. Now in regards to your actual question, my Center would be Andrew Bogut due to his size, defense and rebounding ability. I would then move Russell to PF, which may not be allowed in this excercise but I am going to go that route. He's my #1 player and will make an elite defensive front court pairing. From there I would sign up Baylor to play SF, which is a no brainer. I would then add in Sam Jones, which is a tough choice over Hondo but he will play elite defense on the perimeter and be lights out from downtown. We will need that spacing because our PG, Chris Paul will be getting to the hole and dishing out easy buckets to all.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 4
Madrid: 4
Minnesota: 4
Moscow: 6
New York: 4
Vancouver: 4
Moderator Thoughts:
We started with a layup honestly so everybody did well. I like Moscow thinking outside of a box and putting together a lineup that is scarily similar to the Seattle teams of Legends Lore. Giving Moscow 6 for best answer and everybody else 4 for tying for 2nd best answer...total cop out I know!
2. What do you think is the strength of this draft class and why? Is it guards? Defensive players? Bigs, etc.
Buenos Aires:
I think its positinal diversity...In some classes you have a loaded C or a PG class..This class has it all at all positions. I truly think it would be easy to construct a well balanced team at all positions from the first 12 picks.
Madrid:
The draft is fairly well-rounded. I'd expect at least 4 players from each position to be drafted in the first 30 picks. It's probably weakest at PF and strongest on the wing. I'm not sure we'll see another draft for a while that features guys as talented and diverse as John Havlicek, Sam Jones, and Elgin Baylor at the top. After that, you can draft a defensive specialist in Dave DeBusschere, a scorer in Terry Dischinger, a well-rounded player in Danny Granger, or an incredibly raw player with gobs of potential in Gerald Green. And that's still discounting Chet Walker, Hot Rod Hundley, and Monta Ellis. If you need a swingman, this draft is for you.
Minnesota:
I think the strength of this draft class is how even the talent is spread. There are very good prosects at all positions. At Center you have Russell, Bynum, Bogut, etc. At Power Forward you have just have Jerry Lucas - that may be the weakest position of the draft. The Small Forwards are anchored by Baylor but don't sleep on Dischinger, DeBusschere, Granger, Walker, and others. Shooting Guard looks good with Hondo, Sam Jones, Hot Rod, and NOLA's guy Rashad McCants. The Point Guard position is deep too - not even sure who goes before the other Paul or Williams, and then you still have K.C. Jones, Bob Duffy, Guy Rodgers and a few other guys who could give you some good minutes.
I'm not sure there is one strength to this draft class but it looks pretty clear that Power Forward is the weakest position at this point. Still a few more players who will declare so that could change.
Moscow:
The strength in this class is the depth of potential difference makers. In a league void of talented depth, there are a dozen or so players that can be legitimate pieces on a title contender out there. After that there is a lot of talent that can start in spots or be crucial role players. The influx of talent coupled with superstars at the top make this a great first draft.
New York:
hmm this is an interesting player. I'd say that the wings are the strength if that is an option. You've got guys that I am really high on like Sam Jones, Hondo, Baylor, and also guys like DeBusschere and Dischinger. I'd also say that they defensive ability is pretty promising and we'll see some strong defenders longterm in the post and perimeter come from this draft.
Vancouver:
I think the strength is in the backcourt as you have a wide variety of different types of players that excel at different things. The resounding theme for them is good perimeter defense, which as a coach who preaches defense, is very appealing. I think there's sufficient depth here as well which leads me to believe that a few good starters will drop to the teens as teams pick for need as opposed to BPA.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires:2
Madrid: 5
Minnesota: 6
Moscow: 1
New York: 4
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts: Everybody has pretty similar thoughts, but the devil is in the details. Moscow you started so promising but then no details at all. Minnesota kind of hit on this draft the best. Waters run deep and so does Minnesota's score leading the way with a 5.
3. This draft as it stands right now has seen 16 first round picks change teams, including 4 lotto picks. DO you think this is a trend we should expect to continue or more a reflection of Creation Draft/Year One madness?
Buenos Aires:
Well next classes are going to have at least one lotto pick that changed hands since Spurs keep tradin' them picks
. Im not sure about the trend, some GMs like me, Seer etc will keep trading picks, and some prefer to almost always keep theirs. Everyone has their own strategy. I do think that with much more teams in this version of the league, and with the anti tanking rule policy, that firsts hold a bit less value, and the the risk factor is a bit lesser. As time passes by the league will evolve, it will be easier to point out the contenders, but until then, I think teams may be more open to trading picks and taking risks.Madrid:
I doubt this trend will continue. For many teams, this year became a win-at-all-costs type of season. For good reason, the vast majority of playoff teams sacrificed their picks this year, and some even traded away picks beyond that. After this season, some of the teams who mistakenly traded their picks should start to keep them, although San Antonio has already proven me wrong on that point. Other picks from perpetual winning teams will lose value and might not be traded for pennies.
Minnesota:
With more teams comes more lottery picks. I think this is going to be the norm as teams who are the 9th seed make a move to get into the playoffs that maybe doesn't work out for them. 4 does seem a little high but the 16 doesn't surprise me as much. We've already seen one team trade their 2004 pick. I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers went up actually. I wouldn't predict that but people love to roll the dice.
Moscow:
I actually think it’s crazy that only ONE top 17 pick isn’t owned by the original team. It shows you the conservative approach taken with the creation draft. Of the 16 teams that made the playoffs, only 4 still have their firsts. In this league it proves you need to turn every bit of your tradeable assets into on the court production to win. I suspect we’ll see 2-3 Top 15 picks not on those teams next year.
New York:
- The beauty of still having saves from Legends is I can look back at things like the draft page. According to the save there were 17 first round draft picks dealt in the final Legends draft and 6 in the lotto (two owned by me
) so no I don't think that this was just Year One madness. Vancouver:
With the talent level diluted right now, the value of picks is relatively low as teams don't have any other means to acquire talent. I think this is a trend that is directly related to it being year one but I envision having at least 10+ first round picks change teams every year just due to the expansion of the entire league and the amount of teams that are going to be vying for a playoff spot.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 3
Madrid: 1
Minnesota: 2
Moscow: 4
New York: 6
Vancouver: 5
Moderator Thoughts:
New York bringing the science on this one. Good answers overall!
4. How many rebounds would a Bill Russell rebound, if a Bill Russell rebounded for you?
Buenos Aires:
In year 1 the league played at a fairly slow pace, and percentages were solid, not much outside shooting, so there werent that many rebound around to snag. With Bill's premier ability, and the league picking up the pace, a Bill Russell would probably pick up 10 rebounds per game, with the tendency of improving that number in the following seasons.
Madrid:
Bill Russell would rebound a goddamn championship...Do you have a key to the Champions' Lounge?
Minnesota:
Yeah 1? Probably about 9 rebounds per game. I would hope that he would turn into an elite defender and rebounder down the road but I think Bill is ready to contribute right away. Jerry Lucas is also a legitimate rebounder. Those two might be battling for most boards down the road. I think both guys will be 10 year starters in this league and have a chance to be Hall of Famers. Russell may go down as the best defensive player we'll ever see.
Moscow:
If I got Russell, I’d likely deal anyone from position 1-4 that could rebound for skills in other area so I’d imagine a 10.5-11rebound rookie season for him. In other words, Russell would rebound every rebound that could be rebounded.
New York:
- Right out of the gate he will be upwards up 9 RPG if used properly and could hit double digits. Depending on where he lands though I could see high 8s in year one.
Vancouver:
I would say 12 just because the dude is going to get at least 3 ORB a game from his own misses due to his inept offensive game.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 3
Madrid: 6
Minnesota: 3
Moscow: 3
New York: 3
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts: Madrid's answer is the best answer in my limited history of round tables. Well done sir. 50 PP bonus for best answer Everybody gets a 3 because I said so.
5. Who is your favorite player in the draft?
Buenos Aires:
Dont ask me why but Chris Paul. I just love the look of what he could become one day. After him its Bill Russell.
Madrid:
My favorite player in this draft is Bill McGill. He could slide on draft night, but he has the talent and potential as a scorer to be a top 10 pick. Looking at the success Bob Kurland had in Bamberg this year, some teams might want to take a shot at McGill over some bigger names.
Minnesota:
McCants - if NOLA wants him then he must have something going for him. Otherwise I really like Gerald Green. Crazy athletic, tremendous upside. If I could find a way to get out of this draft with both of those guys on my roster I will consider it a win for the Wolves offseason.
Moscow:
Really. Easy. Sam Jones. League is void of shooters and he’s an elite one. He is athletic, plays defense at a high level and those skills add up. In other words, while there are players with more talent, there is no player in the draft that has his combination. I feel in the league there is a lack of those three things on the perimeter and for him to bring it all, impressive.
New York:
- Hmm well it's tough because I think the best two guys in the draft will be Baylor and Russell w/ Baylor probably having a bit of an edge because I think he's going to be a fun scorer long term. But I have to go big and say that Bill Russell is my guy here. I could go with one of the lesser known or discussed prospects like KC Jones who I like on both sides of the ball but Russell is going to be a monster defensively while still being able to give you 20 PPG every night. Plus like I mentioned he has versatility that I love in my front court guys.
Vancouver:
Raymond Felton. JK. I hate him. Love me some Hondo, who will impact both sides of the floor and be above average in all facets of the game. Add in his size, athleticism and ready to step in game and he would be hard for me to pass up.
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 1
Madrid: 2
Minnesota: 4
Moscow: 4
New York: 4
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts:
No clear winner here but some good answers. I agree with Moscow's view on Sam Jones the question is will he be Darwin Cook his first half of his career in Legends or the 2nd? I would lean the 2nd half of his career. Like what Minny and NY brought to the table so giving all 3 of you a 3 way tie for first.
6. Most overrated/underrated
Buenos Aires:
Overrated- Dave Debusshere- Hes a PF in a SF body, cant shoot, isnt a great rebounder, hes quick but noth athletic or strong enough. Hes going in the top 10 probably, but I just dont know where to project him position wise, and with what hes going to make his name in this league.
Underrated- Tommy Heinsohn and Paul Hogue...two big men, one a versatile scorer and one a premier defender, both have a chance to be starters on contenders in this league.
Madrid:
Overrated: Sam Jones. Some have pegged Jones as a top-3 pick or even as having an outside shot at being drafted #1. Jones is an excellent shooter and defender, and is well-rounded. However, recent updates from scouts have shown questions about Jones's ability to finish around the basket, as well as his strength. Despite being well-rounded at the moment, scouts question his ability to become more than a high-level 3-and-D guy. Because of this, Jones might have the lowest upside as a scorer in the top-5 of this draft, on-par with Bill Russell.
Underrated: Jerry Lucas. Scouts recently have questioned Lucas's upside and ability to hang with ABCA athletes. He's not going to beat many Power Forwards down the floor and won't be out-muscling or out-jumping anyone. However, sometimes teams forget how important refined skill is. Lucas is the best post player in the draft and might have the best numbers out of the gate. His previous success in ABCA Legends, even well into his 30s, should make teams think twice about passing on him in the top-5.
Minnesota:
Zelmo Beaty. He is definitely the most overrated/underrated. I have never seen a guy so overrated/underrated before. The guy is going to be what he is. His game fits his style. He does a little bit of this and a little bit of that. He's right in the middle. He's the most and the least polarizing player in this draft. Someone's gonna get a player when they draft him.
Moscow:
The most overrated player is Bill Russell. He’ll be an elite defensive big and is extremely athletic for his size but not sure he’ll ever give you enough on offense to be worth a top 3 pick (where he is sure to go). As the league improves, he’ll need boosts to get there and he is already 23.
Underrated has to go to Sam Jones. Like I said before, he is skilled in areas where very few around the league are. He’d instantly be one of the top at his positions and give you a clear advantage versus most teams. That can’t be said for any of the other top players. He should be considered in top 3.
New York:
- Hmm overrated is tricky I think because I haven't had many discussions with other GMs. I'm going to pick a surprising name here because while I mentioned above that i'd start a team with him, I have heard discussion of Chris Paul being the #1 pick and I don't think that'd be the move to make. Great player and don't get me wrong he's going to be a top 5 guy out of this draft but I think there are guys that are easily the #1 pick ahead of him.
Underrated i'd say is KC Jones or Jerry Lucas and again I might be reading things completely wrong since my discussion with other GMs about this was limited to nonexistent. KC Jones is going to be an effective Point Guard and one of my favorite players (long term) to come out of this draft and he might slip outside of the top 10 to a lucky team. He doesn't have offensive ratings that'll blow you away but he's respectable everywhere and athletic enough that he'll contribute something offensively while being a top tier defender at the PG position. He reminds me of Guy Rodgers from Legends on my Knicks teams who was never a top 25 scorer or anything but was an all-defense type guy and put up 15 PPG | 5.5 RPG | 8 APG in his best year. Jerry Lucas to a lesser extent is a bit underrated because I think he ends up getting passed over by a GM or two because of his lack of shot blocking but in this league I don't think this will be as big of an issue for PFs and what he CAN do makes up for that one weakness. But if you are just asking for one then KC Jones is my guy
Vancouver:
Overrated is Terry Dischinger. He has the size and age on his size but he is mediocre to me. I think he'll get drafted based on what he accomplished in Legends but I think he's a jack of no trades. My current (aka nobody) scout has him at #6 and I just don't see it.
Underrated is KC Jones. I think he will step in on day 1 and instantly produce as an above average point guard. He's currently projected #14 which I think sells him a little short as he may not have the offensive prowess of some of the guys ranked ahead of him but he has elite ball handling skills and defense which will play for anyone
Question Scoring:
Buenos Aires: 1
Madrid: 4
Minnesota: 5
Moscow: 2
New York: 6
Vancouver: 3
Moderator Thoughts: All interesting answers. I think NY brought it the strongest. I agree with Minny on Don't Call Me Elmo and it was hard to separate the others but I don't think Sam Jones is either under or overrated. He is exactly what he should be a pick in the 3-7 range depending on the team.
Total Scoring and the Awarding of Points
First Place w 24 Points: New York (150 PP) + Participating = 225 PP
T Second Place w 22 Points: Minnesota and Madrid(75PP) + Participating = 150 PP (combined 2nd and 3rd place PP and divided by 2)
Fourth Place w 21 Points: Vancouver = 75 PP
Fifth Place w 20 Points: Moscow = 75 PP
Sixth Place w 14 Points: Buenos Aires = 75 PP
+50 to Madrid for best answer
Moderator: Cairo = 150 PP -50 PP for forgetting Vancouver = 100 PP
The results changed after initial posting because I mistakenly left out Vancouver. Sorry Vancouver
