Post by Vancouver on Sept 10, 2015 12:55:48 GMT
It's time for the first ever roundtable of ULTIMATE LEGENDS!!!!!
Your contestants are: New York Knicks, BAMBERG Brose Baskets, Minnesota Timberwolves, Seattle SuperSonics & Cairo Zamalek.
The ever fair, unbaised judge is yours truly, VANCOUVER GRIZZZZZZLIES.
You know the rules. 4 questions, 4 responses, 4 grades handed out by the judge at his sole discretion. Points are tallied and a champion is declared at the end. May the best jabroni win!
Who was your favorite pick of Round 1? Why?
NY- Charles Barkley. He was a top 5 guy in my eyes and he fell to 11. This guy will be an MVP type player right off the bat and I am still shocked that he fell this far and then a GM was able to trade a meh pick to move up and get him.
BAMBERG: Harry Gallatin! Yes, there were far more talked about players taken…and there were younger players taken…but Gallatin probably is one of the top most talented players in the league right now, and he fell all the way to #34 because of his age and his contract. #34! I’m not saying he should have gone in the top 10 or anything, but there are several PGs that got taken who could have been passed over for a guy like Gallatin. The Breakers made a wise move jumping up and grabbing him to pair with Korac…they will now be a force to be reckoned with for the first few seasons because they had the guts to take on Gallatin’s contract when others shied away.
Minn: I am going with Kevin Durant. Other high-end guys were available at this pick but to be honest I could have seen him going as high as #2. The guy is young and has an upside rivaled only by Jordan. There is always risk associated with youth but I think Durant's floor is pretty high and if nothing else he will have a long career as a useful player. With his mix of size, skill, and youth its hard to bet against Durant. Nice pick by Buenos Aires.
Seattle: Zoran Slavnic at 28. My scout absolutely loved him and he is potentially a 15/10 guy with elite defense.
Cairo: Chicago Bulls (via Istanbul Anadolu Efes) - Charles Barkley - Anytime you get a top 8 player beyond the top 10, don’t mortgage your entire draft or future to move up a few spots to get him and oh he happens to be one of the most skilled and athletic big men in the creation draft I think that is a huge homerun for the Bulls. I had Barkley 6th on my list of players (full disclosure: Sabonis, MJ, Stockton, Mikan, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley) so I thought he was tremendous value and instantly made the Bulls a title contender.
Judge: I’m going to have to go with Barkley as well. I personally had him top 5 and the fact that he fell out of the top 10 is downright criminal. I also agree with Bamberg that at 34, Gallatin is a steal even with that contract. I like Zoran but he went right about where he belongs and I do also like Durant but 5 is about right, as he does carry some risk. NY & Cairo 5 points, Bamberg: 3 points, Minn: 2 points, Seattle: 1 point.
2. Who was your least favorite pick of Round 1? Why?
NY: Michael Adams or Grant Hill. Adams may be solid but I didn't have him on my radar at all here. With Grant Hill I feel like he is probably the worst because while he is solid there were so many other options at this spot. If you wanted a Small Forward then take Julius Erving, if you want the best player take Charles Barkley, if you want the high upside guy then take Kevin Garnett. I felt like there were guys that fit every need more than Hill so can't say i'm a fan of this one.
BAMBERG: Ugh, there were several guys drafted too early, even in the top 10 (Frazier at 6 Milano?), but most at least deserved to be in the first round. I’ll go with Michael Adams, who I didn’t even have on my draft board until at least the middle to end of the 2nd round. Once the PG run started, it seems like several went way too early (I’m looking at your Gilbert Arenas), but Adams is the most egregious offender of the group. If Adams had gone 15 picks later, I’d still have thought he went too early.
Minn: Tough to have a least favorite when the whole round is full of studs. That being said since Clyde Frazier is already being shopped I think that they'd like to have their pick back. Barkley and Malone could have been had here as well. Lets not mix words though, Walt is super good. I'm only judging this pick based on perceived value and the trade rumors surrounding him. I'd be happy to have him on my squad.
Seattle: Michael Adams at 33. There were WAY safer bets at this pick. With this guy, you are hoping he learns how to score and defend. For a first rounder, I want the guy to have a balance of both, or elite in 1 of the 2.
Cairo: Kevin Durant, but not because I don’t think he will be good and potentially great but at the 5th pick with Mikan, Ewing, Barkley and Dr. J on the board I think Buenos Aires could have gotten a sure thing anchor to build a team around especially among those three bigs who were all in my top 8 guys for the draft. So now they are paying a guy who needs to develop and may never be a great defender a big chunk of their cap. Again it isn’t like Durant is a bad player I had him in more the 9-15 range of the draft (athleticism and defensive question marks for me) tho so it was my least favorite with safer and better options available imo.
Judge: I don’t believe that Clyde was a bad pick as he has the same talent level as the guys picked right there next to him, just maybe a year or 2 older. I wouldn’t really call it a reach either since he is going to be the premier guard next to Jordan and should fill up the entire box score. I agree with the sentiment that Michael Adams was definitely a reach. I prefer size in my guards and at 5-10 with very little offense, he reminds me of a less-offensive tiny Archibald. I think he could have been had in the late 2nd. I’m honestly shocked that not one person mentioned Joel Embiid. Yes, he’s athletic but he’s far away the riskiest pick and not at all ready to contribute while making 15mil. As mentioned above, Durant went right about where I suspected him to go, so I don’t think it was a bad pick as it seems BA went all young. Bamberg & Seattle: 5, NY: 4, Minn & Cairo: 1
3. Which trade was the worst of Round 1? Explain
NY: The Boston one was pretty rough trading out of the first and not getting a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round pick while getting the 1st of a GM that now has Pau Gasol and Sergei Belov. But I would have to say that the Istanbul four team trade (that's what i'm imagining it as ) was worse. Istanbul moved back from a franchise player to 52 while only being compensated with picks single picks from Piraeus and New York. While neither of those team are currently playoff locks it feels like he would've been better off just grabbing Barkley.
BAMBERG: Istanbul had this locked up with all of his trades when Round 1 was actually taking place, but San Francisco bailed him out by trading for Anatoly Myshkin after the fact. Trading 2 future 1sts, a 2nd, a 4th and a 7th for the last pick in the 1st round, who was honestly a reach when he was taken…absolutely absurd. This is a young GM making a huge error on his first trade in the league…it might be time to bring back the mentorship program.
Minn: There were a few contenders to be frank. More than a couple of trades I don't get. I think Mexico ended up getting a mid-round first for a future 1sts and a low creation pick. Had that pick been offered up publicly then I think Boston would have gotten nothing lower than a 3rd round creation pick and maybe as high as a 2nd plus a couple of future rookie firsts. Because of that trade the Titans look like a real contender but just recently Cairo and Bamberg made a swap that sent Ewing to Cairo. That was kind of a head scratcher too but I'm sure each team has a plan.
Seattle: Ewing trade. Hands down. Depth is ok but there are only a limited amount of stars and Ewing is one of them. So to give him up for a package that wasn't probably the best package he could get is just TERRIBLE.
Cairo: Can I say a teams deals in aggregate are the worst? If so Istanbul’s deal made no sense to me. They had a top 8 (imo) player fall in their lap at 11 in Charles Barkely who is one of the most skilled and athletic bigs in the creation draft. With the lessoned athleticism my scouts are reporting compared to previous leagues I think that those guys are few and far between. Anyways instead of picking him Istanbul traded down trice losing a 5th round pick in the process and ended up a couple of future picks and some picks in the 2nd round. Depth can always be nice but I think it was crazy to move off of Barkley for what was I believe a 9th round pick and then compound that by trading down and then out of the first round. That team could have simply taken Barkley and been poised to be a title threat with some smart drafting from day 1.
Judge: Jeez, where to start. Hands down, worst TRADE was Boston and Mexico. He received 2 mediocre 1sts and late creation draft picks for a mid-teens 1st round pick. This judge knows for a fact that a significantly better offer was made (2 1sts + 2nd creation round) for the pick but somehow took the lesser of the 2 offers. Istanbul trade was clearly second worst as he kept moving back and picking up small assets when the asking price should have been astronomical for his pick. The Ewing trade is a headscratcher, I always believe in the idea that stars win, so I think it was a mistake for Bamberg to trade a franchise player for depth pieces but the overall value wasn’t TERRIBLE as the first two trades listed above. Agree with Bamberg as well that the SFW trade was even worse value wise but still not on the level of Istanbul and Boston terrible deals. NY 5, Cairo & Minn: 4, Bamberg:3, Seattle 2
4. What was most shocking thing to happen in Round 1? Whether it was a trade, pick, etc. please explain.
NY: The Istanbul drop was pretty shocking but I won't pile onto the guy. If I don't have to pick a single deal then I'd just say the total disregard for future first in this creation draft. I mean I get it, the creation draft is exciting and you are getting the shot to build your team from scratch but do people not remember how useful those picks could be as trade bait or just by keeping them in Legends? Giving both of your picks up for a single player is risky business and it's something that has come back to bite me in the past. Also the fact that GMs are still asking for multiple picks is shocking. There are some GMs that won't even respond to others unless you say you'll give them 2 first. I mean I get it, if someone is willing to pay that insane price then why not ask for it but it's just surprising how adamant GMs are about receiving two first as if it would be bad value for them if they didn't get that. So yeah all the business with the multiple picks was the most shocking thing from Round 1.
BAMBERG: The Spurs made three trades, maneuvering themselves to #22, #27, and not another pick till the 4th round. They traded away their future 1sts, left themselves no safety net…and proceeded to draft a pair of 18-year-old prospects in Wiggins and Embiid. It could be insane, moronic or gutsy depending on how you want to look at it…but it’s certainly the most shocking thing any team did during the first round.
Minn: There was a lot of headline news in the first round of the Creation Draft. Barkley, Malone, and Belov slide. Huge trades involving multiple rookie draft picks and creations picks. There was a run on young Point Guards and Centers. Hell, even Gallatin got picked! I was a little shocked to see Rasheed Wallace go in the first round. I expected him to be a 2nd round selection but since he was taken at 35 that's close enough. Lots of craziness this time around. Good excitement for a league just getting off the ground.
Seattle: Gallatin in the first. Everyone had this dude a lock at 37 except for Auckland. The issue is that the gamble is massive. Imagine a 32 year old wing with a 4 year deal worth a little over 1/4 the the HARD CAP.
Cairo: I think the most shocking thing was what ended up with Seer’s Southern Tigers. I am going with Guangdong, which traded it’s future first round picks to draft more forwards, then traded Dr. J. for a package that I didn’t understand. Of course I probably shouldn’t be so hasty to judge since Seer has proven to make moves that make me go hmmm and have them work out but a roster that is currently comprised of Saric, Randle, Jabari Parker, Bogdanovic and Agent Zero isn’t doing anything for me but I am shocked that is a team that does not have it’s own picks.
Judge: I agree that the most shocking thing is Spurs moves as he gave away all his picks and then swung for the fences in Wiggins and Embiid. We’ll see how it plays out but it’s definitely one of the more intriguing situations to follow going forward. I also like NY post here because the prices for 2nd, 3rd and even 4th round picks are insane. Once the draft is over, no one cares what round the player went in the creation draft. You will be able to extrapolate more value with your 1sts after this is over and teams realize they suck and will want to give players away to tank. I will also give Cairo some credit as he was a late entrant and Seers moves occurred outside the 1st but they rightfully deserve mention as being quite headscratching. Gallatin pick was a steal, especially since he wont begin to decline until year 2, so he will be well worth the contract. I don’t agree that Sheed was a reach in the 1st but im probably bias haha. Bamberg: 5, NY: 4, Cairo:3, Seattle & Minn: 1.
WINNER AND NEWWWWW ROUNDTABLE CHAMPION OF THE WORLD IS.................
NEW YORK – 18 POINTS
BAMBERG! – 16 POINTS
CAIRO - 13 POINTS
SEATTLE – 9 POINTS
MINN – 8 POINTS
Your contestants are: New York Knicks, BAMBERG Brose Baskets, Minnesota Timberwolves, Seattle SuperSonics & Cairo Zamalek.
The ever fair, unbaised judge is yours truly, VANCOUVER GRIZZZZZZLIES.
You know the rules. 4 questions, 4 responses, 4 grades handed out by the judge at his sole discretion. Points are tallied and a champion is declared at the end. May the best jabroni win!
Who was your favorite pick of Round 1? Why?
NY- Charles Barkley. He was a top 5 guy in my eyes and he fell to 11. This guy will be an MVP type player right off the bat and I am still shocked that he fell this far and then a GM was able to trade a meh pick to move up and get him.
BAMBERG: Harry Gallatin! Yes, there were far more talked about players taken…and there were younger players taken…but Gallatin probably is one of the top most talented players in the league right now, and he fell all the way to #34 because of his age and his contract. #34! I’m not saying he should have gone in the top 10 or anything, but there are several PGs that got taken who could have been passed over for a guy like Gallatin. The Breakers made a wise move jumping up and grabbing him to pair with Korac…they will now be a force to be reckoned with for the first few seasons because they had the guts to take on Gallatin’s contract when others shied away.
Minn: I am going with Kevin Durant. Other high-end guys were available at this pick but to be honest I could have seen him going as high as #2. The guy is young and has an upside rivaled only by Jordan. There is always risk associated with youth but I think Durant's floor is pretty high and if nothing else he will have a long career as a useful player. With his mix of size, skill, and youth its hard to bet against Durant. Nice pick by Buenos Aires.
Seattle: Zoran Slavnic at 28. My scout absolutely loved him and he is potentially a 15/10 guy with elite defense.
Cairo: Chicago Bulls (via Istanbul Anadolu Efes) - Charles Barkley - Anytime you get a top 8 player beyond the top 10, don’t mortgage your entire draft or future to move up a few spots to get him and oh he happens to be one of the most skilled and athletic big men in the creation draft I think that is a huge homerun for the Bulls. I had Barkley 6th on my list of players (full disclosure: Sabonis, MJ, Stockton, Mikan, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley) so I thought he was tremendous value and instantly made the Bulls a title contender.
Judge: I’m going to have to go with Barkley as well. I personally had him top 5 and the fact that he fell out of the top 10 is downright criminal. I also agree with Bamberg that at 34, Gallatin is a steal even with that contract. I like Zoran but he went right about where he belongs and I do also like Durant but 5 is about right, as he does carry some risk. NY & Cairo 5 points, Bamberg: 3 points, Minn: 2 points, Seattle: 1 point.
2. Who was your least favorite pick of Round 1? Why?
NY: Michael Adams or Grant Hill. Adams may be solid but I didn't have him on my radar at all here. With Grant Hill I feel like he is probably the worst because while he is solid there were so many other options at this spot. If you wanted a Small Forward then take Julius Erving, if you want the best player take Charles Barkley, if you want the high upside guy then take Kevin Garnett. I felt like there were guys that fit every need more than Hill so can't say i'm a fan of this one.
BAMBERG: Ugh, there were several guys drafted too early, even in the top 10 (Frazier at 6 Milano?), but most at least deserved to be in the first round. I’ll go with Michael Adams, who I didn’t even have on my draft board until at least the middle to end of the 2nd round. Once the PG run started, it seems like several went way too early (I’m looking at your Gilbert Arenas), but Adams is the most egregious offender of the group. If Adams had gone 15 picks later, I’d still have thought he went too early.
Minn: Tough to have a least favorite when the whole round is full of studs. That being said since Clyde Frazier is already being shopped I think that they'd like to have their pick back. Barkley and Malone could have been had here as well. Lets not mix words though, Walt is super good. I'm only judging this pick based on perceived value and the trade rumors surrounding him. I'd be happy to have him on my squad.
Seattle: Michael Adams at 33. There were WAY safer bets at this pick. With this guy, you are hoping he learns how to score and defend. For a first rounder, I want the guy to have a balance of both, or elite in 1 of the 2.
Cairo: Kevin Durant, but not because I don’t think he will be good and potentially great but at the 5th pick with Mikan, Ewing, Barkley and Dr. J on the board I think Buenos Aires could have gotten a sure thing anchor to build a team around especially among those three bigs who were all in my top 8 guys for the draft. So now they are paying a guy who needs to develop and may never be a great defender a big chunk of their cap. Again it isn’t like Durant is a bad player I had him in more the 9-15 range of the draft (athleticism and defensive question marks for me) tho so it was my least favorite with safer and better options available imo.
Judge: I don’t believe that Clyde was a bad pick as he has the same talent level as the guys picked right there next to him, just maybe a year or 2 older. I wouldn’t really call it a reach either since he is going to be the premier guard next to Jordan and should fill up the entire box score. I agree with the sentiment that Michael Adams was definitely a reach. I prefer size in my guards and at 5-10 with very little offense, he reminds me of a less-offensive tiny Archibald. I think he could have been had in the late 2nd. I’m honestly shocked that not one person mentioned Joel Embiid. Yes, he’s athletic but he’s far away the riskiest pick and not at all ready to contribute while making 15mil. As mentioned above, Durant went right about where I suspected him to go, so I don’t think it was a bad pick as it seems BA went all young. Bamberg & Seattle: 5, NY: 4, Minn & Cairo: 1
3. Which trade was the worst of Round 1? Explain
NY: The Boston one was pretty rough trading out of the first and not getting a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round pick while getting the 1st of a GM that now has Pau Gasol and Sergei Belov. But I would have to say that the Istanbul four team trade (that's what i'm imagining it as ) was worse. Istanbul moved back from a franchise player to 52 while only being compensated with picks single picks from Piraeus and New York. While neither of those team are currently playoff locks it feels like he would've been better off just grabbing Barkley.
BAMBERG: Istanbul had this locked up with all of his trades when Round 1 was actually taking place, but San Francisco bailed him out by trading for Anatoly Myshkin after the fact. Trading 2 future 1sts, a 2nd, a 4th and a 7th for the last pick in the 1st round, who was honestly a reach when he was taken…absolutely absurd. This is a young GM making a huge error on his first trade in the league…it might be time to bring back the mentorship program.
Minn: There were a few contenders to be frank. More than a couple of trades I don't get. I think Mexico ended up getting a mid-round first for a future 1sts and a low creation pick. Had that pick been offered up publicly then I think Boston would have gotten nothing lower than a 3rd round creation pick and maybe as high as a 2nd plus a couple of future rookie firsts. Because of that trade the Titans look like a real contender but just recently Cairo and Bamberg made a swap that sent Ewing to Cairo. That was kind of a head scratcher too but I'm sure each team has a plan.
Seattle: Ewing trade. Hands down. Depth is ok but there are only a limited amount of stars and Ewing is one of them. So to give him up for a package that wasn't probably the best package he could get is just TERRIBLE.
Cairo: Can I say a teams deals in aggregate are the worst? If so Istanbul’s deal made no sense to me. They had a top 8 (imo) player fall in their lap at 11 in Charles Barkely who is one of the most skilled and athletic bigs in the creation draft. With the lessoned athleticism my scouts are reporting compared to previous leagues I think that those guys are few and far between. Anyways instead of picking him Istanbul traded down trice losing a 5th round pick in the process and ended up a couple of future picks and some picks in the 2nd round. Depth can always be nice but I think it was crazy to move off of Barkley for what was I believe a 9th round pick and then compound that by trading down and then out of the first round. That team could have simply taken Barkley and been poised to be a title threat with some smart drafting from day 1.
Judge: Jeez, where to start. Hands down, worst TRADE was Boston and Mexico. He received 2 mediocre 1sts and late creation draft picks for a mid-teens 1st round pick. This judge knows for a fact that a significantly better offer was made (2 1sts + 2nd creation round) for the pick but somehow took the lesser of the 2 offers. Istanbul trade was clearly second worst as he kept moving back and picking up small assets when the asking price should have been astronomical for his pick. The Ewing trade is a headscratcher, I always believe in the idea that stars win, so I think it was a mistake for Bamberg to trade a franchise player for depth pieces but the overall value wasn’t TERRIBLE as the first two trades listed above. Agree with Bamberg as well that the SFW trade was even worse value wise but still not on the level of Istanbul and Boston terrible deals. NY 5, Cairo & Minn: 4, Bamberg:3, Seattle 2
4. What was most shocking thing to happen in Round 1? Whether it was a trade, pick, etc. please explain.
NY: The Istanbul drop was pretty shocking but I won't pile onto the guy. If I don't have to pick a single deal then I'd just say the total disregard for future first in this creation draft. I mean I get it, the creation draft is exciting and you are getting the shot to build your team from scratch but do people not remember how useful those picks could be as trade bait or just by keeping them in Legends? Giving both of your picks up for a single player is risky business and it's something that has come back to bite me in the past. Also the fact that GMs are still asking for multiple picks is shocking. There are some GMs that won't even respond to others unless you say you'll give them 2 first. I mean I get it, if someone is willing to pay that insane price then why not ask for it but it's just surprising how adamant GMs are about receiving two first as if it would be bad value for them if they didn't get that. So yeah all the business with the multiple picks was the most shocking thing from Round 1.
BAMBERG: The Spurs made three trades, maneuvering themselves to #22, #27, and not another pick till the 4th round. They traded away their future 1sts, left themselves no safety net…and proceeded to draft a pair of 18-year-old prospects in Wiggins and Embiid. It could be insane, moronic or gutsy depending on how you want to look at it…but it’s certainly the most shocking thing any team did during the first round.
Minn: There was a lot of headline news in the first round of the Creation Draft. Barkley, Malone, and Belov slide. Huge trades involving multiple rookie draft picks and creations picks. There was a run on young Point Guards and Centers. Hell, even Gallatin got picked! I was a little shocked to see Rasheed Wallace go in the first round. I expected him to be a 2nd round selection but since he was taken at 35 that's close enough. Lots of craziness this time around. Good excitement for a league just getting off the ground.
Seattle: Gallatin in the first. Everyone had this dude a lock at 37 except for Auckland. The issue is that the gamble is massive. Imagine a 32 year old wing with a 4 year deal worth a little over 1/4 the the HARD CAP.
Cairo: I think the most shocking thing was what ended up with Seer’s Southern Tigers. I am going with Guangdong, which traded it’s future first round picks to draft more forwards, then traded Dr. J. for a package that I didn’t understand. Of course I probably shouldn’t be so hasty to judge since Seer has proven to make moves that make me go hmmm and have them work out but a roster that is currently comprised of Saric, Randle, Jabari Parker, Bogdanovic and Agent Zero isn’t doing anything for me but I am shocked that is a team that does not have it’s own picks.
Judge: I agree that the most shocking thing is Spurs moves as he gave away all his picks and then swung for the fences in Wiggins and Embiid. We’ll see how it plays out but it’s definitely one of the more intriguing situations to follow going forward. I also like NY post here because the prices for 2nd, 3rd and even 4th round picks are insane. Once the draft is over, no one cares what round the player went in the creation draft. You will be able to extrapolate more value with your 1sts after this is over and teams realize they suck and will want to give players away to tank. I will also give Cairo some credit as he was a late entrant and Seers moves occurred outside the 1st but they rightfully deserve mention as being quite headscratching. Gallatin pick was a steal, especially since he wont begin to decline until year 2, so he will be well worth the contract. I don’t agree that Sheed was a reach in the 1st but im probably bias haha. Bamberg: 5, NY: 4, Cairo:3, Seattle & Minn: 1.
WINNER AND NEWWWWW ROUNDTABLE CHAMPION OF THE WORLD IS.................
NEW YORK – 18 POINTS
BAMBERG! – 16 POINTS
CAIRO - 13 POINTS
SEATTLE – 9 POINTS
MINN – 8 POINTS
